The Politics Thread (PLAY NICELY!)

Discussion in 'Unrelated Discussion' started by stuart98, November 11, 2015.

  1. mered4

    mered4 Post Master General

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    You show me evidence that the story was different than what I stated and researched and I'll stop laughing.
    Standard Oil wasn't perfect - it was the most efficient option at the time. You can't force people to be competitive with regulations and laws - they provide their own incentive. JD Rockefeller wanted to make a profit and to expand his business, and he did so in the most efficient way he knew. As it turns out, he was quite good at it. In fact, he was so good at it, that people built successful oil refinery companies JUST TO SELL TO HIM. One guy, David P. Reighard, built three oil refinery companies and sold them to JDR because it was such good business.

    Except you completely forgot what profit actually is.
    Profit isn't an excess charge for the greedy capitalists. It doesn't exist to pad the pockets of the executives. Profit exists to ensure the growth of the company, and give it the financial flexibility to weather bad economic situations. If Standard Oil had cut their prices to ensure their profit margin dropped by 50%, they would stagnate and be outpaced by more profitable companies. Yes, the price would have temporarily dropped below what it was at the time, but Standard Oil would quickly go out of business, and the prices would rise much, much higher.

    On another, completely related note: prices are determined by the laws of supply and demand. Artificially lowering the price without also increasing the supply would lead to shortages. If Standard was able to increase production to meet this demand, their profits would fall lower and lower, until they either stabilized and stagnated, or until they dropped into the red and began closing refineries to save the business.
    I never stated that Standard oil was perfect. I said the free market system is perfect. I used Standard Oil as an example to disprove your claim that buying out competitors in the market is one of the flaws in the free market.
    No, Colin. Just no. You logically cannot use the excuse that "I must be right" in order to rationalize your opinion. You think the oil market of the time can do better? Fine. Show me the proof. I've got the proof that Standard did their job more efficiently than the government or any competitor could at the time. That means they did as "good as you can possibly do".
    I can't hear you over the sound of your ignorant socialist bullcrap
    First, they weren't the only provider of refined oil. They had a 90% market share. There was a host of smaller, localized competitors.
    Second, answer me this: Who would you rather be in charge, the man who has spent his entire life building a business, or the elected lawyer who thinks he can do a better job?

    Another angle: What abuse would you be referring to on the part of Standard Oil? Perhaps price increases to raise profit margins? That seems fairly ridiculous - their competitors would eat them alive in the open market, drastically decreasing their market share. To make things worse, the price of oil for everyone would be driven higher because the smaller competitors wouldn't have the supply to meet the demand that Standard Oil had previously met. It wouldn't take long, however for their newfound success to give them the means to grow to meet this demand.
    No, that's not it. Perhaps they would spend the money on lobbyists and votes in Congress? But to what end? Perhaps to out regulate their competition and drive them out of business. BUT WAIT you say - isn't that what Comcast is doing?! OH MY GOD! What if - government regulation is the problem?!

    But seriously, what abuse? What could they possibly do within the confines of the free market that abuses customers? Remember, these customers volunteer their money and time to buy oil from Standard Oil. Standard cannot force these customers to buy their oil.
    And you ignore the evidence all around you that the socialist system of government is a hypocrisy and a lie. The entire philosophy relies on the ignorance of the people to stay in power.
  2. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    What's that?

    Still no supporting evidence?

    My gosh. My goodness. I am surprised. Shocked, even.
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  3. cola_colin

    cola_colin Planetary Moderator

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    No it does not. It shows they did good, but not "as good as you can possibly do". Those are two entirely different things and if you were inclined at all to reason you'd realize this.

    You just have no idea at all what it means to prove something "can't be any better, ever". It's much harder than you showing an example of it being good. You are trying to prove a "for all" with an "exists". Does not work. Zero points. Exam failed.

    I give up on trying to teach you reason, I think I'll rather play chess with a pigeon.
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  4. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    To be fair, a lot of what's being done now I'd give a 4/10, like the world hasn't imploded, but it's neither a sustainable model nor a successful model, but I suppose while incarceration is at an all time high at least people aren't dying as quickly as the Dark Ages.

    Could things be done better? Well, could we have created green energy yet? Maybe. Could we not have created electronics at all yet? Very possibly. I'd give that more like an 8/10, they had room to do better but by golly they did better than any of us here would have done at improving technology for instance.

    As far as politics in context, I don't think Europe is doing a poor job, nor would they vastly improve if they suddenly became more Liaise-Faire capitalist, there is a huge chance it'd not work for them because it's not their schtick and trying to emulate it would only cause them to decline.

    This is why we have localized governments instead of a global government. It's the only saving grace of an electoral college (also room for improvement there). It's only fair to allow sections of the world to govern in a manner that works for them.

    North Korea hasn't been toppled for governing terribad, and they're hardly good for their people, and they screw around threatening the rest of the world while they're at it. Still should only support them, if they want reform as a local people all their own. Same even with the Middle East, but they too better learn, that causing deaths in other nation is precisely how you have a war declared, get toppled, and lose your autonomy.
  5. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    Me, I'd give the world a 5/7.

    what is this? rating the state of the world on a 10 scale? is this where we're at?
  6. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    I dunno, World 5 - 7 has a helluva platform bit near Mario's castle.
  7. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    the half-to-end part n this one is really good in it's explanation of why the hurricane disaster and subsequent reinforcement and help for Texan and Floridian home-owners is not panning out so well :


    also heck this deserves to be here rather than in series
    Latest Rick & Morty episode (which features heavy critique of current events) analysis :
    Last edited: September 13, 2017
  8. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    Macron and the media : tell me if this isn't reminiscent of something to you :
    except he's clever : he doesn't care about lying to the whole of France : he only wants to lie to his audience and at least have that work.
    and it does. as a result his image abroad is flawless
    (You do speak pictures right ?)
    http://magique-france.fr/macron-a-toulouse-le-bain-de-foule-pretendu-etait-bidon
    this is macron in my hometown of toulouse where he was beat by mélenchon (and then won in a landslide against LePen). forgets leftist context here in explaining why he won against lepen in toulouse and assumes it's himself.
    He comes to toulouse expecting a grand ovation and hurrah. gets an airport and highway strike instead and when he finally makes it to the plaza there's noone.

    But every single outlet STILL uses the term "bain de foule" : crowd bath. look at the images in the articles and the terms used (much original. so independent) and then look at the top down picture.

    This plaza BTW (a plaza you can't really avoid going through if you're going from A to B anywhere near the center) is always full of people ...just walking. and when there's a concert or a market or an leisure activity or anything else set up it's full up with people.

    I showed you the Mélenchon meeting video which had to take place in La Prairie des filtres the biggest flat surface in town center and yet it was so full most people couldn't make it in and had to watch from the ramparts or at home
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  9. cola_colin

    cola_colin Planetary Moderator

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    So does Macron himself, when asked, claim there were a million people there? xD
  10. walmartdialup

    walmartdialup Active Member

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    After the crash, there is now a mandate in highschool requiring everyone to take a home finance course which describes the impact of a house, university, credit card and car loan.


    Taxes may be more cost effective as a whole, but america is BIG; Its vague, but I can't emphasize this enough; its really a problem.

    In situations where there is a potential for a service to be taxed, many Americans are skeptical that government can achieve its function and look to personal means of financing, like loans, to solve their problems.

    An excellent example is transportation. America could easily adopt a state of the art mass transportation system as seen in countries like Japan, but the people don't want to because of the taxes involved with building, operating, and maintaining the infrastructure. Instead, they take out a car loan.

    Another more American specific example:

    New Jersey is arguably one of the most "progressive" states in terms of social services and boasts some of the top public schools in the country. It costs a lot in taxes and its worth it to some extent because people all over the country move into the state...

    However, after twenty years, people leave their place and move to states like North and South Carolina. People like New Jersey, but they can't stay there. When property taxes are in the vicinity of 12,000$/year just to own a home, people can no longer justify this expense after their kids go off to college out of state. Saving that 10,000$ in property taxes is an enticing argument when you don't need the services offered by the state.

    On the west coast, Californians will likely flock to Texas, Idaho.... maybe Nevada? Wyoming if you have enough money to build your own cabin retreat... You can't avoid it...

    This is could be a reason as to why taxes are not beneficial; people can easily avoid them through competition between states.

    I am sure there is something like state competition within individual European countries, but its pretty important in the American picture.

    Taxes only work with a stable population of people ready to pay for them. People in the US can and do pack up and move at any instant.

    "White flight" is an appropriate term in this instant.

    Unlike social services, A loan however will ALWAYS be there when you need it. With proper fiscal planning, a loan shouldn't be as intimidating as it often appears.

    Just make sure you have a job.... This is why trump got elected... Fix the job problem and you make America "great" again.
  11. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    that's the point he doesn't stoop that low and right now it'd be great if we could ask him anything or if he had the habit of speaking his mind on twitter cuz none of us deserve to know what he thinks according to him.

    no interviews that aren't strictly about licking his balls. otherwise he's entirely detached from the world. we never know were he is or what he's doing.

    his public appearances have been incredibly sparse before this mini tour-de-france. (to not say there were simply none)

    I'm starting to think that with the whole of the mainstream media in his pocket, we have absolutely no tools (these few independent websites aren't enough) to take macron down should he turn into a tyrant.


    I've made the experience in this very forum myself : Noone will believe you because of the echoes THEY get.
    Last edited: September 13, 2017
  12. cola_colin

    cola_colin Planetary Moderator

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    Oh I am starting to totally acknowledge that Macron isn't all that great for you. I've also seen some German press critical of him, reporting on falling support ratings as well as a resistance against some proposed laws.

    Still I stay with: Better this than Le Pen.
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  13. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    yeah I agree now.
  14. thetrophysystem

    thetrophysystem Post Master General

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    If the people that hate one politician for being "Twitler", and hate another for being "shut-in and closed off", then what you hate overlap as a Venn Diagram.

    There are people you hate, for both commenting on Twitter, and not commenting enough on Twitter. So your advice, is they should post moess, or leore? Jw.
  15. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    It's always funny when people bring up "big bad standard oil". Boo hoo, someone happens to be so good at bringing down prices and increasing quality that everyone voluntarily chose to buy from them. It's not like rockefeller absolutely devastated the whaling industry and saved the whales or anything. People aren't doing what I want them to do, better get the government to stop them! Yea, I'm a good person but those other people using government to stop people from voluntarily choosing to get gay married are bad people!

    This idiotic anti-capitalist rhetoric can't keep it's own principles straight, which should be apparent to anyone not easily satisfied with the first low energy, one bit, feel good answer that happens to cross their radar.

    Increase prices = price gouging
    Decrease prices = destroying competition
    Win big market share by catering to customers = not serving interests of customer.

    You just can't win with this anti-logic marxist/socialist thinking. Anti-trust is an idea as stupid as the iraq war. No coherent direction, definition, scope, or goal. Merely one of many weapons co-opted by crony interests in cloak and dagger language, designed to trick and exploit useful idiots in order to to attack their market competitors through different vectors.
  16. Gorbles

    Gorbles Post Master General

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    It's always funny when people bring up "Marxism is destroying capitalism". Boo hoo, someone happens to point out valid and real flaws in capitalism as it exists in society today. It's not like Marx himself looked at modern society, clicked his fingers, and bam, hey presto, instant reset to the Stone Age. Socialists don't do what I want them to do, so I'd better endlessly moan about them on a video games forum. Yea, I'm a good person but I spend all my time constructing elaborate fallacies about people I've never met to satisfy my own "tribal" tendencies!

    This idiotic anti-socialist rhetoric can't keep its own principles straight, which should be apparent to anyone not easily satisfied with the first low energy, one bit, feel good answer that happens to cross their radar.

    somebody made me feel bad = Marx did it
    somebody made me feed good = capitalism did it
    somebody made me question why the world works like it does = Marx did it

    You just can't win with this anti-logic capitalistic thinking. Capitalism is an idea as stupid as the Iraq War. No coherent direction, definition, scope, or goal. Merely one of many weapons co-opted by crony interests in cloak and dagger language, designed to trick and exploit useful idiots in order to to attack the average person in order to keep them complaint and voting for parties that exploit their labour for little reward or compensation.
    Last edited: September 15, 2017 at 5:25 AM
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  17. cola_colin

    cola_colin Planetary Moderator

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    As far as I remember mered brought up that topic. All I did was question his suggestion that Standard Oil was perfect. I don't even question they did okay or maybe even good. But cant-do-any-better perfect? lol
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  18. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    If that's addressed at me : I never said that. I relish it.... I shove it in your face.... I have fun with his unpresdential rhetoric and ways on twitter and how it pales in comparison to other mediums. but I don't complain about him doing that.
  19. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    louis CK on Racism and sexism and america.
    relevant nowadays
  20. tatsujb

    tatsujb Post Master General

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    ongoing left-right peace compromise and how to keep it going :

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