Insomnia Clan Wars

Discussion in 'PA: TITANS: General Discussion' started by rgiles, July 24, 2017.

  1. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    As others have said, I think the map was lacking an end game weapon, the moon required far too many Halleys.
    Apart from that, what I think needs to mature for these matches is diplomacy. Clans should look at the big picture and make truce and basically team up against the biggest threat not leaving whole planets for a clan...

    Gameplaywise, I think that dynamic alliances could be tweaked to a more complex system. For example a 3 state diplomacy:
    -neutral: no allied victory, no shared vision or eco, units won't attack but antinukes will intercept neutral nukes.
    - allied
    -at war
    With this neutral thing you can add rules to prevent situations where A allied with B but at war with C being B allied with C. A would have to end his alliance with B (and become neutral) in order to declare war to C.
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  2. icycalm

    icycalm Post Master General

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    In CW2 I made an alliance with BSE and pXs against BRN. Our allies ended up fighting between themselves because they spawned on each other, but our pact with BSE worked fine, and we each ended up with an entire front that we could leave unguarded for the duration of the game.

    The problem, once again, is that we don't know how many clans and players will play until the very last minute, so we need to make our alliances at that time too. And since the systems arrive at the very last minute too, it means we can't really co-ordinate our spawns, never mind any more complex strategy. There's simply no time for negotiations between 3-4 clans 10 minutes before the start, while at the same time trying to organize the huge, chaotic lobby that takes half an hour alone.

    It would help if all the clans, or at least the smallest ones, were in different channels of the same Discord server, and leaders could just switch channels to chat briefly about stuff. But you would have to have a good working relationship with the other clan, otherwise, if you just drop into their channel uninvited while they are busy doing stuff, they could get annoyed at you, and understandably so.

    The deeper problem is that PA's featureset and UI were not designed with such big games in mind, even though that was the long-term goal, if you read what Uber has said in interviews. They just never got the chance to scale the game up to the point they initially dreamed, so if we want to keep moving in that direction, we will need modders to support us by working on the rules and balance and UI. So figuring out the solutions to many problems will be easy, but actually implementing those solutions will take hard work over months, and even years. I am hoping that enough experienced modders will take an interest in our events to offer their help at some point down the line. You can't run 10-player teams and 100-player wars with the UI created for 10- or 20-player games, and mostly FFAs to boot, though we will certainly try, and see how far we get.
    Last edited: August 12, 2017
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  3. mikeyh

    mikeyh Post Master General

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    In my experience I've found that there are many factors that contribute to how an individual game and map plays.

    I've seen maps perform well and then struggle next game due to landing zone choices, game dynamics, team dynamics and even individual players. eg tired players seem more likely to turtle.

    Usually it's unit hoarding and not attacking that causes unit numbers to grow and sim performance to drop. When sim performance is consistently below 50% the time dilation also changes play styles.

    With big games and lots of players that can get out of control quickly once you pass 5,000 units reinforcing sub optimal play styles as everyone plays safe. ie self fulfilling.

    Over 20 players there is not much head room on any currently available server spec if the play style switches to unit hoarding or t1 spam for whatever reason.
  4. gitaxian

    gitaxian New Member

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    The best way to prevent stalls like this would be to move away from the "2 large starting planets, 1 small moon" map layout. 1 larger (1000+ radius to fit all these teams) starting planet and 3-4 small (250-500 radius) halleyable moons/planets would probably help, in both the last two games one team took the moon but couldn't build Halleys because they needed the moon's production to survive. Having multiple moons should alleviate that problem; if a team gains control of the majority of the moons they can finish the game with Halleys, which gives the other teams incentive to go for orbital as well.
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  5. wpmarshall

    wpmarshall Planetary Moderator

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    We could always use the Bang Battle system? :D

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  6. icycalm

    icycalm Post Master General

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    The "two large planets, 1 small moon" format was used by me on CW2, as a change from the "one huge planet" format I had used in CW1. I intended to make a completely different format for every war, but Elite chose to reuse the format on his own. I had no idea what he was making before I loaded up the system in the lobby on Saturday. We should have communicated more.

    Your suggested format sounds cool, and I am happy to use it for CW4, but I would not like to reuse it for e.g. CW5. Of course eventually we will run out of ideas, and have to start remixing them, but my plan is to use as different systems as possible for every war, and suggestions like your own will be invaluable, so keep them coming please (and whoever has the time, design systems and link them here, preferably as long before Saturday as possible so we have time to look at them and consider them).
    Last edited: August 13, 2017 at 9:50 AM
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  7. walmartdialup

    walmartdialup Active Member

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    I haven't played PA in a while and its nice to see some variation of clan wars coming back. Nice job organizing the clans back together for some well coordinated events. I look forward to spectating future events.

    After watching a few of these matches, I do think there is something to be said for matches being entertaining to watch. While I wouldn't orchestrate an entire event with a spectacle of end game maneuvers, I think using them is a good starting point for map design with future events.

    To some extent, I attribute this approach to any racquet sports. Watching long volleys is entertaining for everyone engaged in the activity, so long as the opponents are trying to win. Clans in PA should be actively volleying units back and forth at each other and they must sustain this rally if they want survive. End game maneuvers are the easiest way to determine if a clan should still be in the game.
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  8. furballman

    furballman Member

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    I can't like this enough XD

    Bang Battle is the best system ever and that is final. :p
  9. icycalm

    icycalm Post Master General

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    I will be doing this for every war from now. I am working on CW3 right now.

    Note that the first episode contains a lengthy introduction which is quite useful to understand all the rest, plus a recap of strategy for CW1 (what little strategy there was there, at any rate).
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  10. manlebtnureinmal

    manlebtnureinmal New Member

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    I did do a post-cast of Clan Wars #3.

    Unfortunately, the video quality is inferior to Marshall's, and there's no chat, but at least the sim speed isn't 20% for half of the game.
  11. icycalm

    icycalm Post Master General

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    Praised be the Lord Jesus.

    The genre is called real-time strategy, and waiting is a valid strategy, which will therefore be used in Clan Wars games like many other strategies. The ADHD viewpoint of stream viewers who switch channels if there's no action happening at any given instant is anathema to strategy games, and whatever team keeps lobbing units all game long IS GUARANTEED TO LOSE if their opponents are not even MORE incompetent than them.

    Marshall's views on the subject are therefore suspect, because he approaches the game from the perspective of a caster. Neither he nor the viewers have any idea how exciting the wait-and-observe-and-be-ready-to-decide-on-when-to-pounce game that pXs was playing was. None of the excitement those guys felt was transmitted to the viewers, because it is a mainly mental excitement that CAN'T be transmitted via such crude means as moment-to-moment livecasting (but should be transmittable to a degree by the strategy analyses I plan to be doing, once I get the replay feature sorted out).

    Essentially, the negative criticisms of the event come from two sources: 1. Viewers, 2. Bad participants (like the TNC guys who had no strategy at all and got wiped from one planet, before Ragnaroking the second to hide the fact that they got beat). I have heard no negative criticisms from ACTUAL PLAYERS so far, because playing the actual event is hella fun, just like playing Civilization. Streaming is a whole other issue, that as I have said concerns me only tangentially.

    I think we just need to run a few more wars until the people who don't like strategy drop off, one by one, and only those who like it are left following the event, and above all participating in it.
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  12. icycalm

    icycalm Post Master General

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    Let's try putting it another way.

    Tactics is the ordering of troops during a battle.

    Strategy is what you do during an entire war, which consists of many battles, plus a ton of other things like recruitment, logistics, base building, diplomacy, and so on.

    The viewers want to see constant fighting. But if the fighting was constant, it wouldn't be a war but one long battle. It is a war precisely because it consists of many battles, which implies that there are PAUSES in the action between them! That's why you have the BATTLE of Stalingrad, and not the WAR of Stalingrad.

    Now just because something doesn't SEEM to be happening during breaks in the fighting doesn't mean that nothing is REALLY happening. Factories are still being built, troops are maneuvering into place, scouts are sent out and their intel is being collected and analyzed to plan future moves, and so on. Is this stuff castable? Perhaps not, but I don't care. It is INSANELY exciting to play, and that's why I and the pSx guys and I hope many other people will continue playing it.

    The sim speed is an almost ENTIRELY other issue that could have been mostly solved by designing a smaller system. Demanding that the players mindlessly throw units at each other every single second of the war is not only suicide but negates the entire purpose of the event (which is to expand the STRATEGY aspect of the game).

    One might say: "If you like strategy so much, why not just play Civilization?"

    Because Civilization consists ONLY of strategy, while PA played the way we do it in my Clan Wars contains BOTH. You get both lots of extremely fast tactical action, AND a bunch of strategy on TOP of that, and in REAL-TIME no less, which makes it far more demanding and stressful. It's one thing making a strategic decision in Civ where you can take a whole day to decide on it, and it's a whole other thing making it during Clan Wars, when you are surrounded by half a dozen other clans, and you are hearing your teammates struggle for survival in the Discord. PA Clan Wars is like the best freaking game ever, or at least definitely the best RTS ever.

    Having said all that, we could definitely use a mod that tells the caster where in the system there is fast action happening, because there's always some engagement going on in such a big game. However, as Marshall already noted, the caster who spent the entire game being led by the nose from engagement to engagement would completely miss out on all the strategy mind-games going on.

    It is a difficult issue to which there's no real solution, precisely because it's so complex. We can use both patient live casters who follow the action moment to moment, and thoughtful post casters like me, who take the long view, and talk about strategy, while skipping over the tactical details. It is a testament to how deep my Clan Wars format is that you can have several people casting it independently, and still learn new things with every cast you watch.
    Last edited: August 14, 2017 at 4:52 AM
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  13. Qzipco

    Qzipco Active Member

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    "Essentially, the negative criticisms of the event come from two sources: 1. Viewers, 2. Bad participants (like the TNC guys who had no strategy at all and got wiped from one planet, before Ragnaroking the second to hide the fact that they got beat). I have heard no negative criticisms from ACTUAL PLAYERS so far, because playing the actual event is hella fun, just like playing Civilization. Streaming is a whole other issue, that as I have said concerns me only tangentially."

    Logic: I will devide the participants into two groups. 1) people who are haters and 2) people who are not haters.
    The people who are haters aren't ACTUAL PLAYERS, therefore their critizism doesn't count. The poeple who are not haters didn't leave any negative critizism. THEREFORE, there was no negative critizism from the participants.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: August 14, 2017 at 8:35 AM
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  14. sardaukar666

    sardaukar666 Active Member

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    I believe when streaming a game of this size that the only way to cover the majority of the action is to have a team of casters because at the end of the day how is one person supposed to be everywhere at once
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  15. sardaukar666

    sardaukar666 Active Member

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    I am working on a couple of systems atm, one system is a mutli planet system with spawnable moons rotating around a metal planet and the other is like the old BRN home system for clan wars which had potential for any of the game ender strategies.
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  16. robomoo

    robomoo New Member

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    We are close to getting Legion modded to allow half the MLA commanders to be Legion, and should be using this mod for Clan Wars soon.

    [​IMG]

    P.S. Invictus won't be Legion, this is just a demonstration of our modding progress.
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  17. mwreynolds

    mwreynolds Well-Known Member

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    I'm fairly sure your have even more performance issues with legion.
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  18. lulamae

    lulamae Active Member

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    Ha! I remember that game. What a totally unexpected, random win for us. was great fun to play!
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  19. gmase

    gmase Well-Known Member

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    I made a mod to change default eco indicators to %, I use it but I consider it too silly to even be publised... until now
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  20. icycalm

    icycalm Post Master General

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    There is a mod that changes the teleporter's name to Stargate.
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